Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v1 - Uncharted Territory

[Fusion Flare]

So what are we thinking of ol Palafin? I’ve messed around with Choice Band lately because most teams primary resist is often either the Box legends, one of which you can eat a hit and smack super effectively with Zen Headbutt (also smacks pex) and the other likes to tera into water-neutral types. Another thing thats good about it is that CB Wave Crash is a nuclear weapon. I don’t think I’ve even mentioned how good Jet Punch is either.
Having a 100% free out vs Flutter Mane is always good.

 

[Garrett]

So what are we thinking of ol Palafin? I’ve messed around with Choice Band lately because most teams primary resist is often either the Box legends, one of which you can eat a hit and smack super effectively with Zen Headbutt (also smacks pex) and the other likes to tera into water-neutral types. Another thing thats good about it is that CB Wave Crash is a nuclear weapon. I don’t think I’ve even mentioned how good Jet Punch is either.
Having a 100% free out vs Flutter Mane is always good.

We run into the following conundrum:

Palafin-Hero @ Choice Band
Ability: Zero to Hero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Jet Punch
- Liquidation / Wave Crash (I think Liquidation is better personally, otherwise you trade with Corviknight at best/blow yourself up at worst)
- Ice Punch
- Flip Turn / Zen Headbutt

• Zen Headbutt is necessary to do ANY sort of damage to Pex, and the 2HKO is not extremely convincing (it's doing around 60%, but we need to fear Baneful Bunker and general switching out. You need to align some stars to make sure you don't have TSpikes or serious hazards on your side so you can double a couple time to whittle Pex down before you run out of juice).
• If you run Zen Headbutt, you give up serious momentum switching out early game. Against HO looking to Shed Tail/Screens/Hazard spam, that's often a serious concession.
• If you drop the secondary water move, you can't 2HKO Corviknight.

I find it ok. It's a weaker Dracovish with a little more utility and some different purposes. I ran a Palafin into Inder and ran Flip Turn thinking he wouldn't Pex me g1. I learned the hard way.

Annihilape @ Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 240 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Rage Fist
- Drain Punch
- Taunt

Really cool set. When is Defiant used? You could maybe consider Inner Focus to deny desperation Chien-Pao or Chi-Yu flinches.

I've been enjoying a couple of mons and unmons in a meta I'm ambivalent about (it's alright but feels super volatile):

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Icy Wind
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Disable / Thunder Wave / Reflect / Light Screen / Charm / Destiny Bond / run whatever man it's 2022

It can't be led into every suicide lead like Grimmsnarl (and you should usually avoid leading it against some Cyclizar cheese), but when it has the matchup, it REALLY has the matchup. Because you resist Glimmora's Mortal Spin, Taunt + Disable shenanigans are fun. General 4th move utility options are also very dandy.

Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- U-turn

This mon is stupid and probably bad, but there's a certain enjoyment I get from having a free bail out from Flutter Mane, Chien Pao, and random weakened sweepers in general. U-Turn allows you to keep up important momentum because, uh,

252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 159-187 (38.5 - 45.3%)

why did game freak make this shit man

Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
- Knock Off
- Stun Spore / Taunt
- Leech Seed
- Protect

I don't have an EV spread I would consider optimized, but this is REALLY annoying. You can choose between paraspam to perform later-on paraspam moments and Taunt to shut down Corviknight (you are naturally faster which is surprising because this looks like a MF snail), Pex, Ting-Lu, etc.

Haxorus @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Tera Blast

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Haxorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 447-528 (108.4 - 128.1%)
UH OH (you do require a necessary Tera Fire which is a lil' undesirable but you got this far the remaining mons aren't no S+)

Gothitelle @ Choice Specs
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 228 HP / 124 Def / 156 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Thunder Wave / Thunderbolt
- Trick
- Rest

name ya fat counter besides Peli (the user not zf's fetish)

Yee

triple post moment

 

[LouisIX]

Really cool set. When is Defiant used? You could maybe consider Inner Focus to deny desperation Chien-Pao or Chi-Yu flinches.

mostly for defog, parting shot and random stats drop such as shadow ball mblast mfire you name it

 

[Paradise Seeker]

mostly for defog, parting shot and random stats drop such as shadow ball mblast mfire you name it

don't forget sticky webs

 

[LBN]

This is literally just a worse peliper

Aight i seemed to have missed Gyarados slander but let me name off a couple reasons why Pelipper is in fact, not just better gyarados and i'd argue its more often worse.

What Pelipper has over Gyarados is Drizzle, recovery and U-turn. However, i don't think these are actually all that important in practice. For starters compared to even a support Gyarados, Pelipper is incredibly passive. Gyarados can force progress nicely between para spreading, dealing a solid 58% or so to miraidon with EQ, and it's ability to take a potshot from most things like Flutter mane in a pinch and cripple it, as well as fazing out setup sweepers. Pelipper has hurricane and that is not hurting Miraidon atall, let alone the fact that Dragon claw forces a roost so you dont die to 2 in the next round. If you have to tera your pelipper to check korai, it's a shit korai check. Gyarados functions competently outside of Koraidon aswell, checking things like Great tusk and also notably, does not replace sun, which can be useful for teams with past mons like your own Great Tusk, Flutter Mane and so on.

Also another thing is this metagame is heavily offensive in nature. Pelipper needing to roost every time Koraidon clicks a button that isnt flame charge or u turn is not something you can excuse, that's far too exploitable. Gyarados shines on specific teams that expect to win the game sooner than later, and cant have their check have low output, namely offense. This is where I think Gyarados shines, being a temporary but reliable counter to 99% of Koraidon in the tier, while also being able to tank a potshot from most in a pinch while spreading paras and dealing decent damage. Yes you have no recovery but that doesn't matter if you plan on winning before Gyarados goes down, which is something that happens a surprising chunk of the time, considering you have about 3-5 encounters with Koraidon you can handle before Gyarados becomes unable to do this.

On Offense, you can justify using Gyarados over it's competition at this job, namely Toxapex and Skeledirge for reasons above. On balance, you really have extremely little use for Pelipper besides if you wish to use rain that pex or skeledirge cant do for you.

 

[zf]

Aight i seemed to have missed Gyarados slander but let me name off a couple reasons why Pelipper is in fact, not just better gyarados and i'd argue its more often worse.

What Pelipper has over Gyarados is Drizzle, recovery and U-turn. However, i don't think these are actually all that important in practice. For starters compared to even a support Gyarados, Pelipper is incredibly passive. Gyarados can force progress nicely between para spreading, dealing a solid 58% or so to miraidon with EQ, and it's ability to take a potshot from most things like Flutter mane in a pinch and cripple it, as well as fazing out setup sweepers. Pelipper has hurricane and that is not hurting Miraidon atall, let alone the fact that Dragon claw forces a roost so you dont die to 2 in the next round. If you have to tera your pelipper to check korai, it's a shit korai check. Gyarados functions competently outside of Koraidon aswell, checking things like Great tusk and also notably, does not replace sun, which can be useful for teams with past mons like your own Great Tusk, Flutter Mane and so on.

Also another thing is this metagame is heavily offensive in nature. Pelipper needing to roost every time Koraidon clicks a button that isnt flame charge or u turn is not something you can excuse, that's far too exploitable. Gyarados shines on specific teams that expect to win the game sooner than later, and cant have their check have low output, namely offense. This is where I think Gyarados shines, being a temporary but reliable counter to 99% of Koraidon in the tier, while also being able to tank a potshot from most in a pinch while spreading paras and dealing decent damage. Yes you have no recovery but that doesn't matter if you plan on winning before Gyarados goes down, which is something that happens a surprising chunk of the time, considering you have about 3-5 encounters with Koraidon you can handle before Gyarados becomes unable to do this.

On Offense, you can justify using Gyarados over it's competition at this job, namely Toxapex and Skeledirge for reasons above. On balance, you really have extremely little use for Pelipper besides if you wish to use rain that pex or skeledirge cant do for you.

Scarf korai
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Koraidon Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Koraidon Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 97-115 (30 - 35.6%) -- 31% chance to 3HKO

Pelipper on the clap back:
0 SpA Pelipper Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Koraidon: 228-270 (66.8 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

gyara in sun is pretty damn passive, idk why youd wanna use a soft check who can swap in twice and dies on the 3rd switch.Doesn’t even clear the Sun

peliper enables strong mons with rain and between uturn/knockoff/tailwind/surf, u can tailor it to support ur team. Giving morai free turns isnt the end of the world when u got a steeldonphn in the back who’s now neutral vs overheat…

idrc whether u use gyara or not but it is certainly more niche, doesnt offer the same support/ role compression as peliper

 

[Rust Dust and Guts]

Scarf korai
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Koraidon Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Koraidon Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 97-115 (30 - 35.6%) -- 31% chance to 3HKO

Pelipper on the clap back:
0 SpA Pelipper Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Koraidon: 228-270 (66.8 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

gyara in sun is pretty damn passive, idk why youd wanna use a soft check who can swap in twice and dies on the 3rd switch.Doesn’t even clear the Sun

peliper enables strong mons with rain and between uturn/knockoff/tailwind/surf, u can tailor it to support ur team. Giving morai free turns isnt the end of the world when u got a steeldonphn in the back who’s now neutral vs overheat…

idrc whether u use gyara or not but it is certainly more niche, doesnt offer the same support/ role compression as peliper

Why the fuck are you goofballs talking about using Pelipper and Gyarados in a tier where Koraidon dunks on both of them?
Like literally what do they even do when Koraidon comes in and gets a Substitute?

 

[zf]

Why the fuck are you goofballs talking about using Pelipper and Gyarados in a tier where Koraidon dunks on both of them?
Like literally what do they even do when Koraidon comes in and gets a Substitute?

Well peliper clicks hurricane…

gyarados loses

 

[Rust Dust and Guts]

Well peliper clicks hurricane…

gyarados loses

Yes my Pelipper will click Hurricane in sun against something faster than it using Substitute.

 

[zf]

Yes my Pelipper will click Hurricane in sun against something faster than it using Substitute.

peliper sets rain when it swaps in ?_?
So hurricane is 100%

 

[Concept Everything]

peliper sets rain when it swaps in ?_?
So hurricane is 100%

That’s when the Koraidon clicks sunny day to throw you off guard for this specific matchup

 

[MiraidonGaming]

That’s when the Koraidon clicks sunny day to throw you off guard for this specific matchup

Idk. I'm not siding with him, but Korai really has a bit of four moveslot syndrome.

 

[haunted paper]

Like literally what do they even do when Koraidon comes in and gets a Substitute?

Why are you saying Koraidon comes in on them when zf and others are saying the other way around? That's like if I said, "Blissey can switch in on Miraidon's Specs Draco Meteor." and you say in reply, "What does Blissey even do when Miraidon just comes in and sets up calm mind to dunk on it?" Clearly, you're ignoring their statements.

That’s when the Koraidon clicks sunny day to throw you off guard for this specific matchup

It learns wild charge, which is x4 super effective against pelipper. Why use sunny day against a mon that shows up only once out of every 100 games. Wild charge at least hits Toxapex too (which is more common than pelipper) and Miraidon is a good partner so if electric terrain is up, that wild charge has a better chance of KO'ing said Toxapex. It also comes in clutch against dondonzo, which otherwise sets up curse to reverse sweep.

 

[MiraidonGaming]

Anyway, why are we talking checks to the box legendaries? I feel like the real threat is probably hazard stacking teams. Gholdengo counters, anyone?

 

[Rust Dust and Guts]

peliper sets rain when it swaps in ?_?
So hurricane is 100%

I think you have it wrong here.
You seem to think Pelipper is a check / answer to Koraidon.
I'm telling you that Koraidon will switch into this supposed "check" and beat it.

 

[Rust Dust and Guts]

Anyway, why are we talking checks to the box legendaries? I feel like the real threat is probably hazard stacking teams. Gholdengo counters, anyone?

I mean both of them can reliably run boots with a pivoting move.
If you want to beat Gholdengo you can just like lead Breloom against the popular lead Glimmora and KO it with Bullet Seed without a single hazard getting up for Gholdengo to maintain.
A hypothetical lead focus sash Breloom could work but with Miraidon being as popular as it is, it probably wouldn't be getting Spore off against anything and would be more focused on smacking things with strong attacks then using Mach Punch against them.

 

[MiraidonGaming]

I mean both of them can reliably run boots with a pivoting move.
If you want to beat Gholdengo you can just like lead Breloom against the popular lead Glimmora and KO it with Bullet Seed without a single hazard getting up for Gholdengo to maintain.
A hypothetical lead focus sash Breloom could work but with Miraidon being as popular as it is, it probably wouldn't be getting Spore off against anything and would be more focused on smacking things with strong attacks then using Mach Punch against them.

Maybe. I was running custap ceru until we found out custap is missing, but I could try this.

 

[Rust Dust and Guts]

Maybe. I was runnign custap ceru until we found out custap is missing, but I could try this.

Gholdengo might come in on Breloom expecting a Spore to block with Good as Gold.
But, Breloom now has a Technician boosted Bulldoze;

Breloom @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Bulldoze
- Spore

 

[MiraidonGaming]

Gholdengo might come in on Breloom expecting a Spore to block with Good as Gold.
But, Breloom now has a Technician boosted Bulldoze;

View attachment 470224
Breloom @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Bulldoze
- Spore

What about air baloon Gholdengo though?

 

[Rust Dust and Guts]

What about air baloon Gholdengo though?

I mean you're using Bullet Seed on most things anyways, just don't click Bulldoze to scout for a potential Balloon.

 

[darkcyber]

u can lead great tusk into hazard stacking teams.

 

[MiraidonGaming]

u can lead great tusk into hazard stacking teams.

With what set?

 

[darkcyber]

With what set?

either with defensive with knock off/rapid spin/ earthquake/stealth rock or close combat
or scarf/banded.

mod edit (merging follow-up post): you will have to build around lead breloom weakness though.

 

[MiraidonGaming]

either with defensive with knock off/rapid spin/ earthquake/stealth rock or close combat
or scarf/banded.

Oh ok

 

[roxie]

I've been liking these three Pokemon on balance and bulky offense playstyles since screens is an easy playstyle to choose at the start of the generation.

Toxapex

Toxapex @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water / Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Toxic Spikes
- Haze
- Recover

Unfortunately, Toxapex lost Scald this generation, so you can't burn things you'd want to burn, such as Chien-Pao, Koraidon, and Corviknight. Toxic Spikes is great against screens HO, but you need to be careful with Taunt Grimmsnarl / Cyclizar. I originally was using Baneful Bunker to stall Toxic Spikes, but Haze seems to be the better option to shut down general setup sweepers. Most of my balances have a Corviknight to check Iron Bundle, so I sometimes opt to run Rocky Helmet to chip things like Maushold and the aforementioned setup sweepers.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-1729209479-k6aa8yowl35brgz48dcgzqkc62xdtr5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ubers-663598

Ting-Lu

Vodoom. (Ting-Lu) @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Ground / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Rest

Vodoom. (Ting-Lu) @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Ground / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ruination
- Spikes
- Rest

Whirlwind + Spikes is an amazing phaze combination to check nearly any setup sweeper (unless it's an Ice-type like Iron Bundle / Chien-Pao, you'd need to go Tera-Steel). I've only used Ruination once with Tera Ground because I needed more pressure on Corviknight on a fat build. Terastalizing into Ground and getting more STAB boost is useful vs Koraidon / Flutter Mane (mainly taking your Dark-typing off and not being checked by CC / MoonBlast). Protect sets are also really annoying.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-1730830869-54kiirj63ra4s9dtx63nh9r7hinwv83pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-1731356347-hc2448hedno0hzi5rhod49b5r8wabd6pw

Ditto

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Transform

We all know what Ditto runs, and it's a little less viable than Toxapex and Ting-Lu, but it does the job. Anything can terastalize and be a surprise factor, and Ditto is a nice anti-ho? since it prevents sweeper from miraculously gaining a random type and sweeping you. L2P prevents part of this, but the general idea of Ditto prevents anything from cheesing you.